Hi, All!

From "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" (well do you know these books calm nerves ;-)

-----Beginning of the citation-----
... Uncle Vernon brought out a bottle of brandy.

"Can I tempt you, Marge?"

Aunt Marge had already had quite a lot of wine. Her huge face was very red.

"Just a small one, then," she chuckled. "A bit more than that... and a bit more... that's the ticket."

Dudley was eating his fourth slice of pie. Aunt Petunia was sipping coffee with her little finger sticking out.
----- The end of the citation -----

As I see Aunt Petunia was not as drunk as Marge but why _her_ little finger was stuck out, while she drank coffee? ;-)

Now I see where a drunk man stuck out finger came from. But I never saw a drunk person with his finger stuck out. Does it happen in England? :)

Bye, All!
Alexander Koryagin

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Alexander -- on Jul 01 2026 at 13:49, you wrote:

Now I see where a drunk man stuck out finger came from. But I never
saw a drunk person with his finger stuck out. Does it happen in
England? :)

-----------
The credible origin lies in Renaissance-era European court
etiquette. Fashionable people used three fingers to hold small items (a convention borrowed partly from how one held a quill pen), leaving the other fingers extended. This became associated with refinement and was codified in etiquette manuals of the 17th-18th centuries.

The tea connection is specifically 18th-19th century British. As tea culture spread through the aristocracy and upper middle class, delicate porcelain teacups small and handleless at first, then with tiny handles were genuinely harder to grip. The three-finger hold again left the pinky naturally extended. It became a marker of gentility, imitated by those aspiring to higher social status.

The irony: by the Victorian era, etiquette authorities like Charles Day and later Emily Post actually disapproved of the extended pinky, calling it affected and overdone. It was a middle-class affectation mocking itself people performing "refinement" in a way that the genuinely refined found vulgar.

Today it persists as a comedic shorthand for snobbery, which is almost the opposite of its intended signal. It's a gesture that outlived its social context entirely and became a caricature of what it once tried to signal.
-------------- (from an AI search)

All of this to say that the lady was trying to be aristocracy and failed miserably.


Cheers... Dallas

--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)

Today it persists as a comedic shorthand for snobbery, which is almost the opposite of its intended signal. It's a gesture that outlived its social context entirely and became a caricature of what it once tried to signal.
-------------- (from an AI search)

All of this to say that the lady was trying to be aristocracy and failed miserably.

I see this made fun of sometimes in British sitcoms.

Mike

--- ScorpioWeb v0.35a (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/107)

Hi, Mike -- on Jul 04 2026 at 23:31, you wrote:

I see this made fun of sometimes in British sitcoms.

Very true -- and no less funny for knowing the history! :-)


Cheers... Dallas

--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:


--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

As I see Aunt Petunia was not as drunk as Marge but why _her_
little finger was stuck out, while she drank coffee? ;-)

Now I see where a drunk man stuck out finger came from. But
I never saw a drunk person with his finger stuck out. Does
it happen in England? :)

I see how a person might stick out a finger when they're drinking from a teacup with a very small handle. Here in North America coffee is more likely to be served in a mug which allows space for at least three fingers... and I reckon most people would probably tuck the fourth underneath the handle for better balance.

+/- 50 years ago tea was generally served, both in England & in Canada, in bone china cups manufactured by Royal Albert or Royal Doulton e.g. While there is little or no market for such things in Canada nowadays I can't tell you what was fashionable Over There at the time of writing... however, I can tell you that when I was growing up allowing one's little finger to stick out was regarded as a breach of etiquette. Children who did so would be told "Hang a hat on it!" as a form of rebuke. Makes sense if the kid doesn't know &/or has forgotten they'll be expected to grasp the handle of a such cup from the outside without doing that. But as to why & how a person could stick out one finger in the circumstances described is a mystery to me as well.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to Dallas Hinton:

Today it persists as a comedic shorthand for snobbery

_ _ _ O / _ _ C_U_T_ H_E_R_E_ _ _ _
O \

All of this to say that the lady was trying to be aristocracy
and failed miserably.

I see this made fun of sometimes in British sitcoms.

Ah, yes. Fawlty Towers comes to mind here. Dallas & I enjoyed that.

You two have given me another idea, though. When I was growing up it was often believed the working class preferred to drink coffee while the middle class preferred to drink tea. This is an overgeneralization of course. But if Aunt Petunia was putting on airs she may have used a delicate china teacup, and in view of the way her companions were behaving I think Alexander's doubt as to her sobriety is justified. Many people used to think a person could "sober up" by drinking coffee... i.e. until somebody pointed out years ago that the effort was far more likely to result in a "wide awake drunk". :-Q




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Dallas Hinton!
I read your message from 04.07.2026 10:05

Today it persists as a comedic shorthand for snobbery, which is
almost ??the opposite of its intended signal. It's a gesture
that outlived its social context entirely and became a
caricature of what it once tried to signal.
-------------- (from an AI search)
All of this to say that the lady was trying to be aristocracy
and failed miserably.

An interesting evolution of the gesture meaning. It has acquired quite a different connotation in Russia. Nobody I think can say why it is, but a stuck out pinky in Russia is a sing of a great level of alcohol intoxication, as if a person cannot control it in his drunk condition.

I remember a joking story from my childhood:
A boy (his name Vovochka, a hero of many similar stories) came home very drunk and met his parents at the threshold. He looked at his parents and said, "Do you know that ice scream was so great!" And he gave a thumb sing of approval, but he could not control his little finger and it had stuck out. Vovochka looked at it said in a drunk voice, "A traitor!" ;-)

BTW, I read that there is no expression "give the thumb up", only "give the thumbs up". Do you use the latter one even if you use only one hand gesture?

Bye, Dallas!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 04.07.2026 23:50

I see how a person might stick out a finger when they're
drinking from a ??teacup with a very small handle. Here in
North America coffee is more likely to be served in a mug
which allows space for at least three fingers... and I reckon
most people would probably tuck the fourth underneath the
handle for better balance.

Well, let it be that a cap has a small handle, but is it necessary to stick out a little finger? IMHO, an advantage of this action is doubtful. Another matter if you have a ring with a brilliant on your little finger. ;=)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

You two have given me another idea, though. When I was growing up it was often believed the working class preferred to drink coffee while the middle class preferred to drink tea. This is an overgeneralization of course. But if Aunt Petunia was putting on airs she may have used a delicate china teacup, and in view of the way her companions were behaving I think Alexander's doubt as to her sobriety is justified. Many people used to think a person could "sober up" by drinking coffee... i.e. until somebody pointed out years ago that the effort was far more likely to result in a "wide awake drunk". :-Q

I think you might be on to something here. ;)

Mike

--- ScorpioWeb v0.35a (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/107)

BTW, I read that there is no expression "give the thumb up", only "give the thumbs up". Do you use the latter one even if you use only one hand gesture?

Interesting observation. I believe it is always the plural even when only one thumb is used.

Mike

--- ScorpioWeb v0.35a (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/107)

Hi, Alexander -- on Jul 07 2026 at 13:55, you wrote:

it is, but a stuck out pinky in Russia is a sing of a great level of alcohol intoxication, as if a person cannot control it in his drunk condition.

Interesting!

BTW, I read that there is no expression "give the thumb up", only
"give the thumbs up". Do you use the latter one even if you use only
one hand gesture?

We would say "Thumbs up" to express approval. We don't often make a gesture to go with that, but I have seen it done one-handed only.

Cheers... Dallas

--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)

Hello Alexander!

In a message of 07 Jul 26 13:55, Alexander wrote to Dallas:

An interesting evolution of the gesture meaning. It has acquired
quite a different connotation in Russia. Nobody I think can say why
it is, but a stuck out pinky in Russia is a sing of a great level
of alcohol intoxication, as if a person cannot control it in his
drunk condition.

No, this changed a long time ago — now it's a Russian mercenaries sign, "jumbo". Maybe because they are, on the whole, stupid, brainwashed
drunkards.



See you,
dp.
--- FidoMail dev
* Origin: livin' on the edge (2:5001/100)

Ardith, your entire message is:

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

And I rather liked it for that.

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Dallas Hinton!
I read your message from 07.07.2026 14:23

it is, but a stuck out pinky in Russia is a sing of a great
level of alcohol intoxication, as if a person cannot
control it in his drunk condition.

Interesting!

BTW, do you watch on TV Formula 1 racings? When they show the pilots before the race you can note an intereting detail about a new born star Kimi Antonelli. ;-)

https://st.g0x.ru/up/6a8d2309.jpg

Bye, Dallas!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Ardith, your entire message is:

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

And I rather liked it for that.

Hmm. Probably that was an error which scanned out before I could catch it, but I'm glad to hear you liked it... [chuckle].

Since you brought it up, however, I went back through the thread to see what I might have missed & noticed that Alexander used the word "brilliant" as a noun meaning "a diamond or other gemstone cut to sparkle brightly". If you will pardon the pun I consider this to be a brilliant piece of work because even many native speakers of English would be unaware of such usage.... :-))




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 21.09.2026 23:12

Since you brought it up, however, I went back through the
thread to see what I might have missed & noticed that
Alexander used the word "brilliant" as a noun meaning "a
diamond or other gemstone cut to sparkle brightly"

Was it unusual? My dictionary says that a brilliant is a sparkling diamond.

Or here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brilliant

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Since you brought it up, however, I went back through the
thread to see what I might have missed & noticed that
Alexander used the word "brilliant" as a noun meaning "a
diamond or other gemstone cut to sparkle brightly"

Was it unusual? My dictionary says that a brilliant is a
sparkling diamond.

Or here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brilliant

In my experience the word is used much more often as an adjective than as a noun... and it would seem the dictionary writers agree because every one of the sources I consulted lists it as an adjective first & some don't list it as a noun at all.

WRT the noun my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY lists it as "a diamond cut with many facets" while my GAGE CANADIAN DICTIONARY explains it as "a diamond or other gem cut to sparkle brightly". Invoking THE FREE DICTIONARY I also see the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY & COLLINS ENGLISH DICTIONARY list it as a reference to diamonds which may be expanded to include other gemstones.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 28.09.2026 16:42

Was it unusual? My dictionary says that a brilliant is a
sparkling diamond.
Or here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brilliant

In my experience the word is used much more often as an
adjective than as a noun... and it would seem the dictionary
writers agree because every one of the sources I consulted
lists it as an adjective first & some don't list it as a
noun at all. WRT the noun my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY lists
it as "a diamond cut with many facets" while my GAGE CANADIAN
DICTIONARY explains it as "a diamond or other gem cut to
sparkle brightly". Invoking THE FREE DICTIONARY I also see the
AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY & COLLINS ENGLISH DICTIONARY
list it as a reference to diamonds which may be expanded to
include other gemstones.... :-)

Bethinking how many languages separated one from another I wonder how English remains as a whole thing. I believe English has so many words that nobody can learn them all, and I should be careful using words from books. :)

PS: But you have to agree with my version - a gold ring with a sparkling diamond on the little finger is a hefty reason to put the little finger out when you hold a wineglass in the company of peacocky people. ;-)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Bethinking how many languages separated one from another
I wonder how English remains as a whole thing. I believe
English has so many words that nobody can learn them all,
and I should be careful using words from books. :)

Well... I'm inclined to think the English we use today is actually a mixture of languages. The island of Great Britain was invaded many times during the last >2000 years by various people who used different languages. Latin, Old Norse, Old German, and Old French come immediately to my mind although I realize similar events probably occurred before the dawn of recorded history.

One of my favourite examples: If you were an Anglo-Saxon farmer who made his living selling food to wealthy aristocrats you'd soon learn to say "You want beef? I have cattle" or "You want pork? I have swine". If you make a few allowances for the idea that the Brits did their best to survive among those who didn't care how what appeared on their dinner table had to do with the peasantry who made such things happen you can see how & why our vocabulary expanded. When we adopt new words, we don't necessarily substitute them for the old ones. :-))

PS: But you have to agree with my version - a gold ring
with a sparkling diamond on the little finger is a hefty
reason to put the little finger out when you hold a
wineglass in the company of peacocky people. ;-)

Uh-huh. That may also be one of the reasons it fell out of favour... it seemed pretentious to those who didn't have fancy jewellery to show off. ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 04.10.2026 23:42

Bethinking how many languages separated one from another I
wonder how English remains as a whole thing. I believe
English has so many words that nobody can learn them all,
and I should be careful using words from books.

Well... I'm inclined to think the English we use today is
actually a mixture of languages. The island of Great
Britain was invaded many times during the last >2000 years
by various people who used different languages. Latin, Old
Norse, Old German, and Old French come immediately to my
mind although I realize similar events probably occurred
before the dawn of recorded history.

One of my favourite examples: If you were an Anglo-Saxon
farmer who made his living selling food to wealthy
aristocrats you'd soon learn to say "You want beef? I have
cattle" or "You want pork? I have swine". If you make a few
allowances for the idea that the Brits did their best to
survive among those who didn't care how what appeared on
their dinner table had to do with the peasantry who made
such things happen you can see how & why our vocabulary
expanded. When we adopt new words, we don't necessarily
substitute them for the old ones. :-))

And if we say about "brilliant" - should we suppose that theoretically it is legal to use it as any part of speech? I suppose if we use "brilliant" as a verb, and it would be ok for grammar. You can say that nobody uses it in this way, but it is the matter of habit? ;)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

And if we say about "brilliant" - should we suppose that
theoretically it is legal to use it as any part of speech?
I suppose if we use "brilliant" as a verb, and it would be
ok for grammar. You can say that nobody uses it in this way,
but it is the matter of habit? ;)

Good question.

Certain words in English (e.g. "fast") may be used as nouns, verbs, adjectives, or adverbs... but AFAIK this isn't one of them. If I wanted to use it as an adverb I'd say "brilliantly".

Modern dictionaries report what people actually say. However, the dictionaries most people tend to rely on are often limited as to space & may or not include everything you've seen or heard.

I feel insulted, BTW, when I'm looking for something in particular and a young shop assistant tells me "Nobody wants those any more". I reckon as far as they're concerned I'm a nobody, but I'm not blaming you.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

On 2026 Oct 08 22:56:12, you wrote to Alexander Koryagin:

Modern dictionaries report what people actually say. However, the dictionaries most people tend to rely on are often limited as to space
& may or not include everything you've seen or heard.

FWIW and IME(1), ""everyone"" these days uses online dictionaries... some may be maintained via user input... some may be maintained by the corporate entities that printed the dictionaries you and i grew up with... you know, those nice hefty and thick ones that sit on the shelf beside our costly, multi-volume, printed encyclopedias that we always wished we could easiey update/ammend with the latest information...

I feel insulted, BTW, when I'm looking for something in particular and
a young shop assistant tells me "Nobody wants those any more".

lucky you! at least they know what that thing is or was... IME there are no or extremely few ""sales droids"", these days, that know the first thing about what they are selling... sure, they might be able to look it up on their phone and point you to the aisle it should be located on or maybe tell you some should be in on the next truck but ask if you can do XYZ with it and they look at you with the most glassy glazed over eyes...

I reckon as far as they're concerned I'm a nobody, but I'm not blaming you.... :-)

i know that feeling... for me, it makes me sad that so many know very little about anything they are selling... they can't explain how to install it, set it up, or how to maybe use it with something else... it almost seems like we are seeing the movie /Idiocracy/ actually coming to life 500 years earlier than the movie "predicts"... the movie is supposedly a satire but... yeah...

PS; i just noticed the random tag line (starts wuth three dots) the editor chose from the thousands it is configured to randomly choose from... seems appropriate in some way LOL



1. IME == "In my experience" for those that don't speak in acronyms like so many youth (ie: <40yo) these days...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... We learn from experience we never learn from experience.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hi, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

FWIW and IME(1), ""everyone"" these days uses online dictionaries...
some may be maintained via user input... some may be maintained by
the corporate entities that printed the dictionaries you and i grew
up with... you know, those nice hefty and thick ones that sit on the
shelf beside our costly, multi-volume, printed encyclopedias that we
always wished we could easiey update/ammend with the latest
information...

Yes, I use THE FREE DICTIONARY when I'm looking for something which is fairly uncomplicated. But I still use my CANADIAN OXFORD, my GAGE CANADIAN, and my RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S although they are more difficult to get at. :-))

I feel insulted, BTW, when I'm looking for something in particular and
a young shop assistant tells me "Nobody wants those any more".

lucky you! at least they know what that thing is or was...

Good point. I remember being told, in a drug store (or a chemist's shop to those who live in SomePlace Else), that roll-on deodorants were "pass‚"
... in a condescending manner when we were both about the same age. But I have learned over the years that many things come back in fashion, if one lives long enough. Within the next year or two aerosols were banned & roll-ons came back.

I reckon as far as they're concerned I'm a nobody, but I'm not blaming you.... :-)

i know that feeling... for me, it makes me sad that so many know
very little about anything they are selling...

Another example: our daughter wanted some emery boards. I tried to help out the guy whose English was marginal by explaining that these things were like sandpaper people use to file their nails & he recommended trying a hardware store, but he obviously didn't know what I had in mind... (sigh).

PS; i just noticed the random tag line (starts wuth three dots) the
editor chose from the thousands it is configured to randomly choose
from... seems appropriate in some way LOL

"predicts"... the movie is supposedly a satire but... yeah...

"Many a true word is spoken in jest." I find it very interesting to see how often such coincidences occur... [chuckle].

"In my experience" for those that don't speak in acronyms like so
many youth (ie: <40yo) these days...

Thank you. I thought so, but I wasn't sure.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 12.10.2026 23:32

Good point. I remember being told, in a drug store (or a chemist's
shop to those who live in SomePlace Else), that roll-on deodorants
were "passe'"... in a condescending manner when we were both about
the same age. But I have learned over the years that many things
come back in fashion, if one lives long enough. Within the next
year or two aerosols were banned & roll-ons came back.

Do you mean that aerosol deodorants are banned in Canada now?

I reckon as far as they're concerned I'm a nobody, but I'm not
blaming you....

i know that feeling... for me, it makes me sad that so many know
very little about anything they are selling...

Another example: our daughter wanted some emery boards. I tried to
help out the guy whose English was marginal by explaining that
these things were like sandpaper people use to file their nails &
he recommended trying a hardware store, but he obviously didn't
know what I had in mind... (sigh).

Today you can show him a nailfile photo on your phone. Progress! ;-)

Although this movie is in Russian you probably will laugh when you see how a Russian man tried to explain that he wanted to buy green tea in one European town store. ;-)

https://youtu.be/1VBkpcmf2c8?t=2025


Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2026

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Good point. I remember being told, in a drug store (or a chemist's
shop to those who live in SomePlace Else), that roll-on deodorants
were "passe'"... in a condescending manner when we were both about
the same age. But I have learned over the years that many things
come back in fashion, if one lives long enough. Within the next
year or two aerosols were banned & roll-ons came back.

Do you mean that aerosol deodorants are banned in Canada now?

It seems they're not completely forbidden, but the rules have become more & more restrictive for some time now. While I don't know all the detaiIs involved I do remember roll-ons making a sudden comeback in the latter part of the twentieth century. :-)

Today you can show him a nailfile photo on your phone. Progress! ;-)

Theoretically I could, but I have an old flip phone which I use only for making & receiving phone calls. In any case an emery board is a lot finer than the average nail file.... :-)

Although this movie is in Russian you probably will laugh when you
see how a Russian man tried to explain that he wanted to buy green
tea in one European town store. ;-)

I understand some people may find the term confusing, but may not be any happier if you say "Japanese tea"... [wry grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)